harrypotterfandomcom-20200223-history
Talk:Griphook
"Former" loyalty to Gringotts I don't think Griphook was "formerly" loyal to Gringotts. (SPOILER ALERT) I think he was always loyal to the bank. After helping Harry, Ron and Hermione break into the Lestrange's vault he turns on them and joins the Gringotts goblins. Doesn't that prove he's loyal to Gringotts still? --Margiechocoholic Owl me! 13:23, September 12, 2009 (UTC) Infobox I think there should be a Gringotts individual infobox or a goblin infobox. User:Quirinus Quirrell Death I´ve read on TLC that Griphook is killed by Voldmemort in the film adaptation of DH. Can this be canon. It doesn´t contradict the book, doesn´t it?--Rodolphus 15:28, April 4, 2011 (UTC) :It is assumed that Voldemort had a huge fit of anger and killed everything in sight (except for the Malfoys and Bellatrix) when he found out about the break-in at Gringott's, and Griphook is amongst the dead bodies in the scene where Voldemort and Nagini creep through the room and step on and around the bodies. It is film canon. Book canon...notsomuch...in the book he kills the goblin that came to inform him of the break-in, but it's not Griphook. And there aren't a huge bunch of dead bodies around, like in the movie. ParryHotterHero 18:13, July 18, 2011 (UTC) : ::In the book, the scene is just as bloody as in the film (perhaps a bit more, as it is clear Volemort wouldn't have spared the Malfoys and Bellatrix if they got in their way as he did in the film). I'd say Griphook's death does not contradict the book in any way (that I am aware, of course) and, as such, will add it to the article. -- [[User:Seth Cooper| Seth Cooper ]][[User talk:Seth Cooper| owl post!]] 19:14, July 18, 2011 (UTC) :::Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Griphook die inside the Lestrange's vault in Gringott's Wizarding Bank at Diagon Alley, London? After all, that is where Voldemort got to hear the cup was stolen and that is where he got so enraged he killed everyone present, except those who managed to get out the vault in time (like Lucius Malfoy and Bellatrix Lestrange). His biographical information now states he died at Malfoy Manor, Wiltshire. :::Piandao85 18:25, October 5, 2011 (UTC) ::::You are mistaken, Piandao85. "He was standing in a dimly lit room..." "... and he strode from the room, through the hall, and out into the dark garden where the fountain played; he called the snake in Parseltongue and it slithered out to join him like a long shadow...." --Deathly Hallows, Chapter 27 ::::"Somewhere in the dark garden beyond the hedge a fountain was playing." "The hallway was large, dinly lit..." "The drawing room was full of silent people, sitting at a long and ornate table..." --Deathly Hallows, Chapter 1 ::::It was definitely Malfoy Manor, not Gringotts. Plus, if you saw the film, you would know from the vision that it was Malfoy Manor. AlastorMoody 22:20, November 11, 2011 (UTC) :::::I always questioned Griphook being dead in the books because he probably didn't go to Malfoy Manor after the robbery, as he had already suffered once there and had fled after the incident with placing the duplicate sword in Bellatrix's vault. Until we get a definitive answer for Rowling, I'll be skeptical. Ztyran (talk) 01:42, July 29, 2012 (UTC) ::::::If he hadn't taken the sword of Gryffindor when Harry Potter needed it most, I'd be sorry that he died, but instead I'm glad. C.Syde (talk | contribs) 06:21, March 13, 2014 (UTC) :::::::I can definitely NOT consider it canon, as it couldn't possibly happen in the book. He is not at the Malfoy's Mansion, for there's only one goblin, definitely not Griphook (or is he finally the most stupid being ever ?). From the mansion, Voldemort goes to each of his Horcruxes, end ends up at Hogwarts at the start of the battle. The mention of his death here is then misleading, because from the book point of view, it could NOT have happened.Don Silk (talk) 15:25, May 30, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::You must be very confused if you don't think he died in the book. -- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 20:21, May 30, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::I'm definitely not confused. When I search for facts, I do it thoroughly. Maybe, in order to avoid being both rude and look stupid in the future, you should go and read the book again. ::::::::Deathly Hallows, Chapter 26 Gringotts. "Sliding from Harry's shoulders the moment he could, he had sprinted for cover amongst the surronding goblins, brandishing the sword and crying, 'Thieves! Thieves! Help! Thieves!' He vanished into the midst of the advancing crowd, all of whom were holding daggers and who accepted him without question." ::::::::Please try and find any mention of him after that, there are none. The moviemakers wanted him to pay for his treachery, but in the book his punishment is only to lose the sword when it answers Neville's call and appear in the Sorting Hat.Don Silk (talk) 19:06, June 2, 2015 (UTC) :::::::::: @ Don Silk - On the contrary, I'd advise you to re-read the book. You obviously didn't read the book thoroughly enough because one of the chapters plainly says that Lord Voldemort kicks aside the goblins dead corpse. I would tell you what chapter it happens in, and what page, but unfortunately I'm having a bit of trouble finding my book at the moment. I neither sound stupid, nor rude, and no I do not stand corrected when I say that Griphook does in fact die in the book. ::::::::::Please re-read the next few chapters after the Gringotts chapter, and open your mind to the possibility that I am right, and you are wrong. -- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 05:57, June 3, 2015 (UTC) :::::::::This is the way I look at it: It is certainly not clear that he died in the book. It is also not clear that he survived. There would also have been a very good chance that he would have been killed in the process of the dragon's escape. When the movie contradicts the book, the book wins. However, when the movie presents a scenario that generally could have happened, and there is nothing in a book that contradicts it, I think we can consider that canon. So I think it is reasonable, until/unless it is contradicted by JKR, to assume that Griphook died in some manner as part of the Gringotts' escape. Perhaps crushed to death by a piece of the falling tunnel. Based on everything I have seen/read, a definitive end (e.g., death) to a somewhat important character in the film would have required JKR's approval. Or to put it differently, I am willing to bet a fair amount that the film-makers would not have shown Griphook clearly dead unless JKR approved. She has granted the film-makers great license, and I would not consider a lot of the details in the film canon - but the death of a significant character like Griphook, I don't think she would have allowed that if in her rmind he had survived. Also, keep in mind something she said out-of-universe about Millicent Edgecombe - "I loathe a traitor!" ''(30 July 2007, ''Bloomsbury Live Chat) Wva (talk) 21:40, June 2, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::::@ Wva - I'm not trying to sound rude here, but I think you should consider what I've just said in my most recent comment also. -- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 07:47, June 3, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::::@ C.Syde : I read that too, a few times as I was looking for Griphook's end. Please stop and insult my intelligence by pretending I missed something. Same thing could be said about your comment to Wva. I will return your advice to yourself, modifying again to avoid being as rude as you are in judging people lower and less intelligent than you : open your mind to the possibility that you might be wrong, and that we might be right. Between your memories of quite a long time ago (wouldn't be that fresh if you couldn't know where you put your books...) and my quoting directly from the books I have in front of me, I'm sorry to say I'd chose the book. ::::::::::To me, the goblin you mention is definitely not Griphook. There is only one at Malfoy's Mansion in that scene, never named in the 4 direct (+1 indirect, the first) mentions of him. ::::::::::Quotes of Deathly Hallows, chapter 27 The Final Hiding Place. "... on the floor at his feet knelt a small, quacking figure. ... '''The goblin' was trembling, unable to meet the red eyes high above his....'M - my Lord,' stammered the goblin, its black eyes wide in terror, ... The Elder Wand slashed through the air and green light erupted through the room, the kneeling goblin rolled over, dead, ...He paced the room, kicking aside the goblin's corpse as he passed,..."'' ::::::::::If you think that's Griphook, try to answer a few questions and see if after answering it truthfully you'd still think it could have been him : ::::::::::- Do you really think that J.K. Rowling would simply have "forgotten" to mention his name, even once, with him being such an important character? ::::::::::- Would Griphook be, as I said before, the world most stupid being ever, going willingly and alone to Voldemort and say that he had helped Harry break in? Even more, being a former prisoner at the Malfoy's mansion, go back there fin full knowledge that Bellatrix will recognise him and most likely kill him? ::::::::::- Would Gringotts send a goblin that is no longer in its employments to warn of the break-in, and possibly try to apologise? ::::::::::-The whole sequence is seen through the eyes of Harry. If he had seen Griphook, wouldn't he had named him, or mentionned it afterwards to Ron and Hermione? They both resented him as much as he did, he would have told them if he saw him murdered. ::::::::::Of course, all of this is conjuctural, based on logic and relying on J.K. Rowling not making her characters turning from calculating and self-centered to suicidal and plainly dumb, and herself not making beginners mistakes in giving the reader the name of the Goblin. Maybe she had, though, and you'd be right... ::::::::::@Wva : I understand that it could be seen that way. However, I still am not convinced, because, as you quoted, J.K. Rowling mentionned her loathing for traitors. During the books, she always found a way for traitors to be punished one way or the other. In the case of Griphook, I wouldn't consider him a real traitor : Harry asked him to help them in the chamber, he did, and went for his due when he could, loyal to his belief that wizards are not to be trusted. Harry and Ron of course feels he double crossed them, but wouldn't they have double crossed him in the first place if they had managed to keep the sword? They played a game with him, he did the same and won. ::::::::::Apart from that, you're right, he could have died. From a rock falling, from punishment for Bogrod recognising him from the few seconds the Imperius Curse was lifted from him after the Thief's Downfall, from turning mad when he saw the sword had gone, or from chocking on a peanut at home while celebrating. ::::::::::What I mean is, his death in the movie totally contradicts the book, because he couldn't have been there. Hence, stating that his death happened that day is only speculation. Don Silk (talk) 09:19, June 3, 2015 (UTC) :::::::::::I'm not trying to appear smarter than you are, and I'm not trying to look down on you either, I'm just trying to point out that the evidence that the goblin is Griphook all points in the direction I'm stating. Also I can't say that this doesn't apply to anyone else, but some of my memories can actually stay adequate for years, and few can even last decades, over one decade, I haven't lived two decades yet. But it's very unlikely that the said goblin wasn't Griphook, because while the other goblins would have found out about the robbery, Griphook was the one who had the sword, and it was with Gryffindor's sword that Voldemort killed the said goblin. -- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 09:39, June 3, 2015 (UTC) ::::::::::::It even says so in the article. -- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 09:41, June 3, 2015 (UTC) :Since it's obvious no one wanted to go to Voldemort and tell him what had happened (everyone knows what happens to the bearer of bad news), isn't it possible a large group of people who witnessed the break-in was forced or coerced to go to Malfoy Manor by the Death Eaters to appease Voldemort? This would account for the large number of people in the scene around him (guards, bank employees, etc.) and, possibly, for Griphook as well. It would also make sense, as people like Lucius and Bellatrix would rather have other people face Voldemort than themselves (as made evident in the book). :As for Griphook being the Goblin that Voldemort kills first, the Wiki currently treats them as different characters (the goblin being Unidentified goblin killed by Voldemort), since saying the two are one and the same is speculation, since that isn't shown not even in the film. That said, I see no reason to conclude that there was only one goblin present. -- [[User:Seth Cooper| Seth Cooper ]][[User talk:Seth Cooper| owl post!]] 10:00, June 3, 2015 (UTC) ::I wholeheartedly but respectfully disagree with the opinions above. Personally I find the possibility of the goblins not being one and the same to be rather implausible, and it was in-fact shown in the film. It also clearly states, both in the pictures of the article and the article itself that Griphook was killed by Voldemort, even though he isn't referred to by name. Clearly my finding and what I've read in the article contradicts others, so I am currently not convinced by what others have said. Is there nowhere J.K. Rowling has revealed whether or not they are the same goblin? That would certainly settle this disagreement. As far as I'm convinced, saying the two are different is speculation as well, since I see no evidence to the contrary. -- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 10:06, June 3, 2015 (UTC) ::Okay, maybe the goblin that was killed by Voldemort in the book was unidentified, but Griphook was definitely the one that Voldemort killed in the film, and it still says in the Griphook article that he was killed by Voldemort at Malfoy Manor. -- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 10:13, June 3, 2015 (UTC) :: :@Seth Cooper : as you perfectly said, and it is the whole point of my views here, is it only speculation. From the way I see it, it cannot have happened, from the way you or Wva sees it, it could have. :Quote : Deathly Hallows, chapter 27 The Final Hiding Place :" He was standing in a dimly lit room, and a semi-circle of wizards faced him, and on the floor at his feet knelt a small, quacking figure. " For me, there are no others than the one depicted, but one can always say there was others, behind him, in the black corners or in even the loo, as it is not mentionned.. :I still think that if J.K. Rowling wanted him dead, she would have mentioned it. For me, it is only a way the moviemakers found to explain simply how the sword went to Neville, and improve the morale of the story : he double crossed Harry, he must pay.I get your point of being forced to go, however for me it conflicts with this sentence, and with, once again, the logic of Goblins being highly intelligent, calculative and, above all-else, self-concerned. What then would be the point to send a large group to its death? They would gain nothing over this, so to me (and once again I can be reading the psychology of the characters wrong) it makes more sense that they had forced only one to go and die before he found out and come to them. :It's the whole question here : to make it canon, we have to find a way to make it fit by ourselves, by reading more than what is written, and assuming. :@C.Syde : I'm sorry, I'll go back to first grade and learn to read again what's in front of me, and for more safety will go to the bookshop to make my book checked, to ensure that it had not changed its words, your memory couldn't be possibly wrong. That said, refering as canon the subject under questionning is plainly stupid : to prove I'm mistaking, you quote the article I say is misleading... by that way, I'll create an article saying the sun is purple because I saw it in a movie, you'll come and tell me I'm wrong and it's not true in real life, but I'll tell you you're wrong because the article plainly says it is, so I couldn't be wrong... :You stand by what you saw in the movie as a proof it's one and same character, when I try to make you see it can be seen another way. The whole question is "Is this part of the movie canon?", your answer is "yes, because the film shows it." Then, for you, it is absolutely true and canon that Harry has blue eyes?Don Silk (talk) 11:35, June 3, 2015 (UTC) ::No I do not believe that it is canon that Harry has green eyes. And saying the sun is purple would be blatantly ridiculous. -- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 11:51, June 3, 2015 (UTC) :::Thank you so much, captain obvious, you're a real genius... at missing the point!Don Silk (talk) 11:59, June 3, 2015 (UTC) ::::That's sarcasm right? Look, the reason I said all that stuff above was because I under the impression that you were saying that no goblin died during the chapter, because I was convinced that the said goblin who died in the book was Griphook. As it turns out, I'm not sure whether I'm supposed to believe that the goblin that died in the book was Griphook or not. -- C.Syde (talk | contribs) 08:42, June 5, 2015 (UTC) Sorry About Page Edit While trying to upload a photo to this page, the text kept getting messed up, the picture would not remain the right place, and the text would go through the picture! I must apologise about this, and it was angering me to such a degree that I was about ready to toss my computer out the window! If someone could sort it out, it would be great. It's during the "Breaking into Gringotts" section.... AlastorMoody 22:08, November 11, 2011 (UTC) Removal of Information Any reasons why this information was removed? As far as I can see, there's no clear proof that the removed information contradicts the book. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 03:12, October 22, 2017 (UTC) :But it does. In the equivalent scene from the book, there is only one goblin present who we can deduce is not Griphook as Harry does not make any indication of recognizing him. The other individuals present are explicitly called wizards. I at least assume this is the rationale for now considering Griphook's death non-canon. -- 1337star (Drop me a line!) 03:28, October 22, 2017 (UTC) ::True, although it's unclear, since it doesn't explicitly declare that it isn't him, though I guess you've made your point. It would be great if J.K. Rowling would state whether or not it was him. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 03:36, October 22, 2017 (UTC)